State of Mind

Tai and me

Here is a piece of email conversation between my aunt and me. It starts with my aunt’s statement. However, I would like to hear ur views on "respect", as I'm still confused as to what it implies as "expectations" and what it implies wrt "dignity in earning and living".

“Relationships expect response but they deserve respect and discipline.”

“Well, firstly, that is exactly what i'm trying to tell u. Relationships expect response, but only when the hearts dont commune. Let me assume that I say "I expect u to do this for me". Now, supposing u do not do this for me, does that imply that I've lost my respect for u, just because u didn't do what I expected? Now, I've so many expectations from u, some of them crucial to make me love u. U do one thing wrong that goes against what I expect from u, it's like "I hate u", I don't respect u anymore. I disrespect u. I don't love u anymore. Are u seeing the play of opposites of here - hate/love, respect/disrespect...That, is the play of duality (what one would refer to as the veil cast upon us ( maya in hinduism), which is the play (lila) of god....and so on in other eastern religions. Neways, coming back to the point - when u say that "relationships expect response", ur directly implying a result, an ending that should come, an event that should take place, "through respect and discipline"...and if it doesn't then the whole duality begins again... What is important is not the end, it is the means. the means and ends are not separate. (u must have read this in one of my posts). only thru the means do we reach the ends, and only when we concentrate on the means, which are in the present, in the unknown, can we really reach the end, for if we try to stay within the realm of the ends directly, a self-projected image, a desire, the means will not allow us to reach it. Karma - action, reaction. "Karma karte jao, phal ki chinta naa karo."
(do u see the inherent role of the means in this too? ) I quote the Bhagavat Gita - "You are what your deep driving desire is/ as is ur desire, so is ur will/ as is ur will, so is ur deed/ as is ur deed, so is ur destiny."
All eastern religions talk about this duality, but all of them try to preach coming out of it through discipline - praying, meditation, proper (disicplined) lifestyle, offerings, donations and help for the needy, living in isolation, jap....the list goes on! Now, i'm not saying that helping the needy should not be done and is not rite, all i'm saying is that it cannot lead u to happiness. Search within urself.....have u found solace through all these things? unlimited, unbound happiness? or do u still cling on to some form of faith for solace, be it religious, obsessive, or something else? u have to be really careful with words!

we can go on to talk about discipline at the level u want to talk about it at, however, I do not have the time to go into it rite now. will write more later.”

“Now !! I am going to read your mail sentence by sentence and respond to some of it.
Assuming there is a relationship, that it self means there already is, a or some kind of response. And when you say," I expect you to do this for me",you are already breaking rule. Believe me there are rules in any relationship. Some rules are meant to be broken but relationships expect respect and that means you do not say," I expect you to do this for me". If it is not an understood feeling, by asking, you also loose respect. And every 'love' feeling doesn't change into an automatic 'hate' feeling. Love and hate are both very strong and misused words. Not two people can think alike just because they love each other. In fact freedom of thinking and accepting that the other person has a different point of view is process of growing. It is almost abusive to convey that, "what I expect from you is crucial in my loving you". Response to that should be that's your problem, deal with it. Emotional blackmailing is a form of abuse too at least among equals. We do blackmail children, but for obvious reasons. If they could think what is good for them we would call them grown ups :)
When you respect a relationship, expecting a result is not automatic. If you go by freedom of choice and free thought process. Two people have similar expectations, of being accepted, loved, appreciated and YET retain some part of theirs free from this relationship or any other relationship in their lives. That's the 'me' part, and I think for peace in your mind this me part plays a big role. Solace, abundant happiness and many such words must mean different things to different people. I think they are overrated myths.

I am not a big fan of the Hindu religion, a lot of it is for the sake of argument I think, or any other religion for that matter. Discipline for me is only that you live your life with restrain, responsibility and respect. But I expect the same from my relationships. And if not, well move on, not meant to be. Why invest energy in some thing that is not even fun to be with.
Talking personally, I live simply and honestly, I like and dislike people, I am opinionated, don't have much patience for people who challenge me for the heck of it. Believe in freedom of thinking the way I feel like rather than what I am expected to. I have a right to agree and disagree and so does the other person. And the best part is, if I don't like somebody or somebody doesn't like me, is fine with me.
Last sentence I want to respond to is, I don't want you to go on discussing 'discipline' with me on any level , I am not seeking a discussion with you. I am very comfortable with my views, frog in a well type :)”

“>>Not two people can think alike just because they love each other. In fact freedom of thinking and accepting that the other person has a different point of view is process of growing. It is almost abusive to convey that, "what I expect from you is crucial in my loving you". Response to that should be that's your problem, deal with it.
Ur absolutely right in saying this. But, this is one thing that u and I understand this. Most of the people facing emotional problems in this world have the problem of understanding this simple thing.
>>We do blackmail children, but for obvious reasons. If they could think what is good for them we would call them grown ups :)
I would not call it "blackmailing". I prefer to use the term "incentive structure" to describe it. Children do not understand the repercussions of their actions, so u give them a choice and let them choose from what they think will benefit themselves the most. This is the libertarian principle (pro-capitalist structure) that the seminar was all about. However, as u said, "it's ur problem and u deal with it" – implies that uve to let the other person make and learn from their own mistakes. That is the only way that understanding can really come.
>>Two people have similar expectations, of being accepted, loved, appreciated and YET retain some part of theirs free from this relationship or any other relationship in their lives. That's the 'me' part, and I think for peace in your mind this me part plays a big role. Solace, abundant happiness and many such words must mean different things to different people. I think they are overrated myths.
I see that u also understand what u describe as the "me" part. (many people do not, and I can say that through my personal experiences). Freedom, again, is the key issue. Do u see that ur answering what u wanted to know about libertarian principles urself. As far as solace/happiness and the rest of it is concerned, it is totally subjective, and I agree with u. However, I would like to pose the question as to why people still go on and cling to systems of faith/religion in order to gain something. I know people, old people, who have found happiness by working happily throughout their lives with this belief system, but ultimately, they still fear death. They see it as the end of happiness. They still have an inner urge to do something, fulfill something within themselves. (I don't think u have a problem with that, after all the pain uve been through. After all, uve lived ur life more than I have, so there might be somethings that I yet don't understand). That freedom from the fear of death is what I would define as true liberation, because otherwise it binds us to this constant cycle of conflicting emotions and desires. I can give u an example of how BG. I remember when u were here, she used to tell u that she wanted to help u out in the kitchen and function well, and u told her (if I remember correctly) that she shouldn't worry about these things now, that she should die peacefully.
>>Discipline for me is only that you live your life with restrain, responsibility and respect.
I agree with u that life should be lived responsibly. In whatever situation one is, everyone has some form of power, some form of control over someone else. Take the example of these political parties, all vying for power. And all of them are corrupt only because they do not realize that with power come responsibilities, which are ultimately based on ethics. (I will not go on to define ethics right now)
>>Believe in freedom of thinking the way I feel like rather than what I am expected to.
I think we like each other so much only because we share the same libertarian views.”

Posted by puzli at January 4, 2006 03:45 AM